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	<title>Comments on: Video games as art: My favorite games that are more than just &#8216;point and shoot&#8217;</title>
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	<link>http://skullsinthestars.com/2009/11/25/video-games-as-art-my-favorite-games-that-are-more-than-just-point-and-shoot/</link>
	<description>The intersection of physics, optics, history and pulp fiction</description>
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		<title>By: skullsinthestars</title>
		<link>http://skullsinthestars.com/2009/11/25/video-games-as-art-my-favorite-games-that-are-more-than-just-point-and-shoot/#comment-6180</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[skullsinthestars]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skullsinthestars.com/?p=1304#comment-6180</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve never played it myself, but I&#039;ve heard nothing but good stuff about &quot;Planescape&quot;.  Having been produced by &quot;Black Isle&quot;, I wouldn&#039;t expect any less!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve never played it myself, but I&#8217;ve heard nothing but good stuff about &#8220;Planescape&#8221;.  Having been produced by &#8220;Black Isle&#8221;, I wouldn&#8217;t expect any less!</p>
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		<title>By: PTM</title>
		<link>http://skullsinthestars.com/2009/11/25/video-games-as-art-my-favorite-games-that-are-more-than-just-point-and-shoot/#comment-6171</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PTM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skullsinthestars.com/?p=1304#comment-6171</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One of the best stories in the games I&#039;ve played was in Planescape Torment. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape_Torment]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the best stories in the games I&#8217;ve played was in Planescape Torment.<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape_Torment" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape_Torment</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Rhetts</title>
		<link>http://skullsinthestars.com/2009/11/25/video-games-as-art-my-favorite-games-that-are-more-than-just-point-and-shoot/#comment-5045</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Rhetts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skullsinthestars.com/?p=1304#comment-5045</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was a little surprised that anyone who evaluates art for a living would fail to understand how essential the participation of the audience is to the artist.  To use an extreme example, think of &quot;Finnigan&#039;s Wake&quot;, which may require several hours of research and contemplation, just to understand and appreciate a few pages.  To my mind, the choices and alternatives which are possible in video games are just another dimension available to the artist and audience.  Consider how powerful a painting by Hieronymus Bosch would be if the viewer was able to experience it interactively!

My candidate for artistic games would be Myst and Riven.  The games were certainly limited in movement, but the images were gorgeous and well complimented by the audio.  I can still remember the eerie feeling and sense of loneliness I got from my first encounter with Myst.

-Chris]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was a little surprised that anyone who evaluates art for a living would fail to understand how essential the participation of the audience is to the artist.  To use an extreme example, think of &#8220;Finnigan&#8217;s Wake&#8221;, which may require several hours of research and contemplation, just to understand and appreciate a few pages.  To my mind, the choices and alternatives which are possible in video games are just another dimension available to the artist and audience.  Consider how powerful a painting by Hieronymus Bosch would be if the viewer was able to experience it interactively!</p>
<p>My candidate for artistic games would be Myst and Riven.  The games were certainly limited in movement, but the images were gorgeous and well complimented by the audio.  I can still remember the eerie feeling and sense of loneliness I got from my first encounter with Myst.</p>
<p>-Chris</p>
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		<title>By: skullsinthestars</title>
		<link>http://skullsinthestars.com/2009/11/25/video-games-as-art-my-favorite-games-that-are-more-than-just-point-and-shoot/#comment-5041</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[skullsinthestars]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 03:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skullsinthestars.com/?p=1304#comment-5041</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks!  Very nicely stated.  (And I did ask!)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks!  Very nicely stated.  (And I did ask!)</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://skullsinthestars.com/2009/11/25/video-games-as-art-my-favorite-games-that-are-more-than-just-point-and-shoot/#comment-5033</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 14:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skullsinthestars.com/?p=1304#comment-5033</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just a late follow up with a link to the above mentioned blog post, that saves me having to type out my own thoughts on this subject... You did ask. :-)

http://viewfromthecorner.blogspot.com/2007/04/oblivion.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a late follow up with a link to the above mentioned blog post, that saves me having to type out my own thoughts on this subject&#8230; You did ask. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><a href="http://viewfromthecorner.blogspot.com/2007/04/oblivion.html" rel="nofollow">http://viewfromthecorner.blogspot.com/2007/04/oblivion.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: skullsinthestars</title>
		<link>http://skullsinthestars.com/2009/11/25/video-games-as-art-my-favorite-games-that-are-more-than-just-point-and-shoot/#comment-5018</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[skullsinthestars]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 03:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skullsinthestars.com/?p=1304#comment-5018</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sci: Thanks for the comment!  Halo is an interesting example in that the series tried to tell a story a bit deeper than one would expect from a first-person shooter.  In the end, though, in my opinion, they kinda failed.  (Of course, you may not have played the games themselves so my comments might seem a bit mysterious!)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sci: Thanks for the comment!  Halo is an interesting example in that the series tried to tell a story a bit deeper than one would expect from a first-person shooter.  In the end, though, in my opinion, they kinda failed.  (Of course, you may not have played the games themselves so my comments might seem a bit mysterious!)</p>
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		<title>By: Scicurious</title>
		<link>http://skullsinthestars.com/2009/11/25/video-games-as-art-my-favorite-games-that-are-more-than-just-point-and-shoot/#comment-5013</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scicurious]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 15:47:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skullsinthestars.com/?p=1304#comment-5013</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was actually in an aesthetics class where a guy wrote his senior paper on vidoe games as art, using Halo as his big examples.  I personally think it does qualify as art, given the work and interpretation that goes in to the creation of the world.  I would say video game creators spend just as much, if not more time on things like world-building compared to movie makers.  And regardless of the interface, the perception of art (in my opinion) is subjective.  If you want to take that far enough, most thing qualify, but even if you don&#039;t, video games (particularly MMORPGs) are well within.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was actually in an aesthetics class where a guy wrote his senior paper on vidoe games as art, using Halo as his big examples.  I personally think it does qualify as art, given the work and interpretation that goes in to the creation of the world.  I would say video game creators spend just as much, if not more time on things like world-building compared to movie makers.  And regardless of the interface, the perception of art (in my opinion) is subjective.  If you want to take that far enough, most thing qualify, but even if you don&#8217;t, video games (particularly MMORPGs) are well within.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake Stacey</title>
		<link>http://skullsinthestars.com/2009/11/25/video-games-as-art-my-favorite-games-that-are-more-than-just-point-and-shoot/#comment-5010</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Blake Stacey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skullsinthestars.com/?p=1304#comment-5010</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d heard of &lt;i&gt;The Lurking Horror,&lt;/i&gt; but I&#039;ve never played it.  (The &quot;department of alchemy&quot; door was still there in Building 2, the last time I looked.)  A friend and I once planned to write an adventure game set in and around MIT, which would be a blend of &lt;i&gt;Zelda&lt;/i&gt; with a bit of &lt;i&gt;Dragon Warrior,&lt;/i&gt; the latter chiefly so we could have Red Slimes crawling out of the Charles River and getting in the player&#039;s way.  The game never came to be, but we did manage to recycle most of the jokes into our script for a one-act musical comedy, &lt;i&gt;Harry Crocker and the Plot of Holes.&lt;/i&gt;  &quot;Welcome to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Witchcraft and Wizardry!&quot;

(Which we tried to follow the next year with &lt;i&gt;TwilEIT,&lt;/i&gt; only to discover that there&#039;s just not enough substance in the &lt;i&gt;Twilight&lt;/i&gt; series to parody.  So, we did the natural thing:  in the opening scene, a freshman gets bitten by the vampire disguised as an Emerson art major.  He collapses, the other students come on stage and exclaim, &quot;We have to get him to MIT Medical, stat!&quot;  Cue &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6zJ9dEwNek&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Teardrop&quot; by Massive Attack&lt;/a&gt;, and the story (d)evolves into a &lt;i&gt;House&lt;/i&gt; episode.  Oh, and with a &quot;death panel&quot; to make the story topical.)

Taking classes on hypertext fiction and such was an interesting experience, in a Sturgeon&#039;s Law sort of way.  A good many of the prototypical computer-based interactive fictions, written back when HyperCard was a novelty, which were supposed to be the paradigm-shattering innovations which would level the playing field between author and reader. . .  just aren&#039;t that fun to read!  The self-conscious &quot;we are the innovators&quot; attitude and the clunkiness of the software interfaces probably both contributed to the &quot;what if they held a revolution and nobody came?&quot; story of 1980s hypertext fiction.

Nowadays, with everybody used to the Web, it might be different.  Interactive fiction and text adventure on, say, the Amazon Kindle might be interesting.

Such classes also subject you to a whole lot of art-that-must-be-explained.  If it&#039;s not a HyperCard programmer or a videographer going on about what they &quot;were trying to achieve&quot;, it&#039;s your fellow students doing their homework assignments and final projects, which in most cases (see again, Sturgeon&#039;s Law) have to be elaborately prefaced.  &quot;What I wanted to do with this piece was to explore the tension between individual and society. . . .&quot;  When I realized how much I &lt;i&gt;didn&#039;t like that,&lt;/i&gt; I started doing much more interesting work!  My favourite was when we had to do a video &#8212; this being a year or so before the rise of YouTube.  I knew I wanted to make something which wouldn&#039;t require an artist&#039;s statement to understand, and I figured, &quot;Everybody&#039;s seen movie trailers,&quot; so I ended up making a trailer for an early version of the novel which eventually became &lt;i&gt;Until Earthset.&lt;/i&gt;

I should probably go back and do that again, now that the written part is finished. . . .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d heard of <i>The Lurking Horror,</i> but I&#8217;ve never played it.  (The &#8220;department of alchemy&#8221; door was still there in Building 2, the last time I looked.)  A friend and I once planned to write an adventure game set in and around MIT, which would be a blend of <i>Zelda</i> with a bit of <i>Dragon Warrior,</i> the latter chiefly so we could have Red Slimes crawling out of the Charles River and getting in the player&#8217;s way.  The game never came to be, but we did manage to recycle most of the jokes into our script for a one-act musical comedy, <i>Harry Crocker and the Plot of Holes.</i>  &#8220;Welcome to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Witchcraft and Wizardry!&#8221;</p>
<p>(Which we tried to follow the next year with <i>TwilEIT,</i> only to discover that there&#8217;s just not enough substance in the <i>Twilight</i> series to parody.  So, we did the natural thing:  in the opening scene, a freshman gets bitten by the vampire disguised as an Emerson art major.  He collapses, the other students come on stage and exclaim, &#8220;We have to get him to MIT Medical, stat!&#8221;  Cue <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6zJ9dEwNek" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Teardrop&#8221; by Massive Attack</a>, and the story (d)evolves into a <i>House</i> episode.  Oh, and with a &#8220;death panel&#8221; to make the story topical.)</p>
<p>Taking classes on hypertext fiction and such was an interesting experience, in a Sturgeon&#8217;s Law sort of way.  A good many of the prototypical computer-based interactive fictions, written back when HyperCard was a novelty, which were supposed to be the paradigm-shattering innovations which would level the playing field between author and reader. . .  just aren&#8217;t that fun to read!  The self-conscious &#8220;we are the innovators&#8221; attitude and the clunkiness of the software interfaces probably both contributed to the &#8220;what if they held a revolution and nobody came?&#8221; story of 1980s hypertext fiction.</p>
<p>Nowadays, with everybody used to the Web, it might be different.  Interactive fiction and text adventure on, say, the Amazon Kindle might be interesting.</p>
<p>Such classes also subject you to a whole lot of art-that-must-be-explained.  If it&#8217;s not a HyperCard programmer or a videographer going on about what they &#8220;were trying to achieve&#8221;, it&#8217;s your fellow students doing their homework assignments and final projects, which in most cases (see again, Sturgeon&#8217;s Law) have to be elaborately prefaced.  &#8220;What I wanted to do with this piece was to explore the tension between individual and society. . . .&#8221;  When I realized how much I <i>didn&#8217;t like that,</i> I started doing much more interesting work!  My favourite was when we had to do a video &mdash; this being a year or so before the rise of YouTube.  I knew I wanted to make something which wouldn&#8217;t require an artist&#8217;s statement to understand, and I figured, &#8220;Everybody&#8217;s seen movie trailers,&#8221; so I ended up making a trailer for an early version of the novel which eventually became <i>Until Earthset.</i></p>
<p>I should probably go back and do that again, now that the written part is finished. . . .</p>
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		<title>By: skullsinthestars</title>
		<link>http://skullsinthestars.com/2009/11/25/video-games-as-art-my-favorite-games-that-are-more-than-just-point-and-shoot/#comment-5009</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[skullsinthestars]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skullsinthestars.com/?p=1304#comment-5009</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Blake:  You had a class on text adventures?  I&#039;m so jealous!  I used to write them on my old Commodore 64 when I was younger, and I&#039;m tempted to give it a try again for fun.  There&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.axeuk.com/quest/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;pre-made software available&lt;/a&gt; for writing such games, but I think I&#039;d do it from scratch. 

Being an MIT alum, are you familiar with Infocom&#039;s old &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lurking_Horror&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Lurking Horror&lt;/a&gt;&quot; text adventure?  The college campus is, as I understand it, a thinly-disguised MIT.

&lt;blockquote&gt;It’d be interesting to see a similar thing done with the modern science blogosphere. “You are in a maze of twisty little inside jokes, all alike. It is very dark. You may be eaten by a raptor.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

:)  The only problem is that most of the puzzles in such a game would be involve outwitting creationists, which would make the game difficulty somewhere around &quot;easy&quot;.



&lt;blockquote&gt;His criterion was the multiplicity principle: when a scene is doing more than one task at once, then it’s being “artistic”. &lt;/blockquote&gt;



That actually reminds me of something Scott Adams of Dilbert fame said about comedy (before he went totally &quot;woo&quot;).  He said that good humor involves the combination of two or more humorous elements, such as meanness, cuteness, bizarreness, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blake:  You had a class on text adventures?  I&#8217;m so jealous!  I used to write them on my old Commodore 64 when I was younger, and I&#8217;m tempted to give it a try again for fun.  There&#8217;s <a href="http://www.axeuk.com/quest/" rel="nofollow">pre-made software available</a> for writing such games, but I think I&#8217;d do it from scratch. </p>
<p>Being an MIT alum, are you familiar with Infocom&#8217;s old &#8220;<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lurking_Horror" rel="nofollow">The Lurking Horror</a>&#8221; text adventure?  The college campus is, as I understand it, a thinly-disguised MIT.</p>
<blockquote><p>It’d be interesting to see a similar thing done with the modern science blogosphere. “You are in a maze of twisty little inside jokes, all alike. It is very dark. You may be eaten by a raptor.”</p></blockquote>
<p> <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   The only problem is that most of the puzzles in such a game would be involve outwitting creationists, which would make the game difficulty somewhere around &#8220;easy&#8221;.</p>
<blockquote><p>His criterion was the multiplicity principle: when a scene is doing more than one task at once, then it’s being “artistic”. </p></blockquote>
<p>That actually reminds me of something Scott Adams of Dilbert fame said about comedy (before he went totally &#8220;woo&#8221;).  He said that good humor involves the combination of two or more humorous elements, such as meanness, cuteness, bizarreness, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: skullsinthestars</title>
		<link>http://skullsinthestars.com/2009/11/25/video-games-as-art-my-favorite-games-that-are-more-than-just-point-and-shoot/#comment-5008</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[skullsinthestars]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skullsinthestars.com/?p=1304#comment-5008</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mary: You&#039;ll have to send a link to your post sometime; I&#039;d love to see it.

Oblivion was another game I thought of putting on the list -- the only reason I didn&#039;t, I think, is that I&#039;d already spent 4 evenings trying to finish the damn post and didn&#039;t want to make it any longer!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary: You&#8217;ll have to send a link to your post sometime; I&#8217;d love to see it.</p>
<p>Oblivion was another game I thought of putting on the list &#8212; the only reason I didn&#8217;t, I think, is that I&#8217;d already spent 4 evenings trying to finish the damn post and didn&#8217;t want to make it any longer!</p>
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